We don't give them the chance to grow in the truth of AA's wisdom; we allow them to create their own. Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/recoverysortof/message, recovery sort of is a podcast where we discuss recovery topics from the perspective of people living in long-term recovery this podcast does not intend to represent the views of any particular group organization or fellowship the attitudes expressed are solely the opinion of its contributors be advised there may be strong language or topics of an adult nature welcome back its recovery sort of im jason a guy who cant wait to talk about anonymity and im billy im a person in long-term recovery and its tradition 12 and the only exciting thing about this for me is that we dont have to do it next month were done the tradition oh thank god thank god um so tradition 12 its anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions ever reminding us to place principles before personalities what in the hell does that mean anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions so i guess anonymity is a spiritual principle of being anonymous and it always is supposed to keep in mind for us that we place these spiritual principles before other peoples personalities but what does that even mean like what is the way i understand it is that we are encouraged supposed to if you want to use that word and were not supposed to do anything but we are encouraged expected uh wanted to try to place the needs of the whole ahead of our own individual needs that our own individual wants and desires and beliefs should not overcome the needs of the groups so when it says ever reminding us to place principles before personalities does that mean our own personality like were supposed to place the principles and whats best for the group of above our own personal wants and yes is that what you say yeah that is never how ive read that before i thought of that as like being a good person even when other people are dicks, but i should be working within the group to try to serve the group i mean again this stuff is whatever predicated on the idea that everyone is doing the same thing not that you have one guy that comes in and acts like a dick and runs the meeting poorly so thats what everybody does because theyre putting their groups needs ahead of their like not that youre right youre predicating that on the idea that everyone is bringing that you know spirit to the discussion one of the things i found fascinating thats a little off topic from this tradition is on youtube we got a comment on one of our tradition episodes it was either 8 or 9 i cant remember maybe even 10 who the [ _ ] knows at this point it all runs together but they were like i thought you were gonna have more uh program-based information and im just i dont remember the exact quote but something about i thought you were gonna be more specific with the program literature and theres this guiding principles book and you guys should read the literature and really figure this out and i was like wait everything we said is like taken from the literature its straight out of the basic text and it works out why so thats interesting what made me wonder was does the guiding principles workbook like deviate from our original text i have no idea i havent read it but it did make me question that yeah i dont think it deviates it does go a little deeper into each of the principles and uh i mean each of the traditions and spiritual principles that are in them maybe they feel like were missing some or not discussing some in a way that it specifically says in the book i mean i our literature at least says that you know our hard-won experience gave birth to the traditions and it is only through understanding and application that they work um so most of my understanding has been through years of service work and hard work being involved and right actual doing it not necessarily just what i read in a book somewhere i guess thats my snarky way of saying get involved and do some service and then figure out if youre what your ideas are it sounded like billy gave him the middle finger whoever that was i i dont know justification yeah i commented back something along the lines of like most of this episode is straight out of the literature but whatever it was just an interesting thing to me i didnt like get hugely offended by it or nothing i didnt care enough to get offended honestly its like tradition episodes suck well i heard jimmy k and id have to find it i have it on one of my speaker tapes or cds somewhere say that all this talking about traditions and steps does not serve the fellowship and is actually makes it more complicated and confusing than it needs to be so all this new literature and stuff maybe isnt the best thing yeah well maybe its easier to keep it simple and apply it in basic terms and make it easy just be honest and show up a dictionary definition of anonymity is a state of bearing no name in keeping with tradition 12 the i becomes we the spiritual foundation becomes more important than any one group or individual so thats a you know one of the first pieces out of the the basic text version of this the spiritual foundation becomes more important than any one group or individual its hard to picture where this is gonna be profoundly infused into anything that ive ever done like i dont nothing ive ever seen or witnessed really placed the uh again this kind of goes back to the last episode talking about feeling like i need to protect n a or something like yeah there have been some things that i thought well thats kind of shitty or thats just all about that guy that home group right thats all about what he wants to do in that meeting but none of that i ever thought was like oh my god n a is gonna fall apart if we let this go like ive never thought that like any one group or individual was gonna tear na apart honestly um i dont know that i ever felt that a group was gonna tear the fellowship apart i will say we had and ive talked about this before but weve had was it one group with two meetings a week that took on this attitude that if you were smoking cigarettes or drinking coffee that you were using and that you werent clean and they shared that openly in their meetings and would say things like you need to get a white key tag and things like that and and it was very contradictory um from everything that i understood you know that was not the basis of the fellowship but anyway uh and they were on the meeting schedule and we were sending people to that meeting and i didnt know that it was gonna tear the fellowship apart but what i thought most directly for me was imagine coming out of treatment with no days clean or you know whatever 30 days clean whatever getting out of treatment coming home and hitting that as one of your first meetings or one of your early meetings and being like oh thats what na is about [ _ ] that like im gonna smoke cigarettes and drink coffee like i you know thats [ _ ] crazy and you know that was always my fear what is it if thats your introduction or your takeaway from that meeting as a representation of narcotics anonymous that from everything i understood was wrong anyway you know we had we should be trying to do something to stop that but any stance was no uh yeah pretty much well i mean they said it was really up to our area whether we decided to have a meeting on our schedule or not and you know they didnt have a hard stance on that that our area makes up whatever guidelines for having a meeting on your schedule it was really up to the area so all the groups in an area can vote a group out so you cant close a group right we would not have been able to stop them from existing voted out that was the one thing they did tell us yeah um so you cant and this is now my understanding that wasnt my understanding at the time but my understanding now is you cant vote them out of the area because the area is there to serve the groups like its you know the earlier tradition says we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve we have another tradition that says our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern so these are people that are of positions of service theyre not in positions of authority or governance so that group can exist and by all my understandings now back then it was very different back then i was wholeheartedly [ _ ] that group we should shut them down we should take them off the schedule and again that was based in this idea that people are going to die as a result direct result of getting dismissed information um so yeah so i just thought we needed to do something to stop them from quote-unquote killing people with this bad information that they had it was interesting coming up here and seeing in the susquehanna area area service that when a new meeting shows up to area service and says we want to be a new meeting we just say welcome hey go get a newcomer packet from literature or whatever and coming from the northeast freedom area they take a vote about a new meeting joining the area whether thats a newly established meeting or a meeting coming from another area into the area they have to vote to decide that which seems contrary to what you just explained that they dont have the ability to do that the groups decide what the [ _ ] they want yeah and my understanding of all of that is i guess the only thing that youre technically allowed to approve them for is addition to your meeting schedule like if if youre if you have a service board youre whoever it is in our case its our literature committee that uh makes up meeting lists that that subcommittee is directly responsible to the groups that it serves so if the groups say hey we want to make sure that a meeting at least meets three months in a row or whatever criteria you put on before we add them to the schedule thats one thing but you shouldnt have the ability to keep them from meeting or approve them from meeting or you know what i mean like they can still show up there and meet and call themselves an a meeting and your subcommittees are responsible to try to serve them in any way that they can so they could always just send a gsr to area even if you dont vote them into the area correct and they can vote they have a valid vote uh in my understanding they should yeah i mean theres probably some technicalities about if the groups have to because i was talking with that about some of that with my wife its like what do you do if youre a service board or committee directly responsible to those you serve but then the people that you serve tell you to do something that is contradictory to traditions or principles like what do you do do you serve them or do you allow your higher principles to sell i said i would probably step down or quit or say im not going to do that but yeah and it says in like the explanation of what the job of the gsr is at area service is that look your home group elected you to carry the information back to the group from area and from the group to area but it also states in there specifically like youre also elected to to you know basically follow tradition 12 and and benefit the program or the fellowship as a whole and not to act in ways that are contradictory to that that are just beneficial for one or two groups right so it like kind of says like use your best judgment dont you know bring a vote here from your group about you know this group should get like star treatment or something like that thats not a thing and so its just fascinating that all that but and thats that approval of groups is im gonna say somewhat new its not that new but it wasnt always that way there was a process where group and i believe that was again just brought up and discussed within that service committee where it was like we dont have a right to tell people they gotta jump through these hoops or do these things to start a meeting like if you show up and you wanna open and start a narcotics anonymous meeting our [ _ ] attitude should be welcome you know thanks for showing up we what can we do to serve you what can we do to help your meeting be successful that should be our idea not wait a minute uh you know do you have blah blah blah do you have some money to start do you have you know all that [ _ ] like that is not our responsibility well i mean thats definitely what it was in northeast freedom area now that you say that it was like do you have your positions filled do you have like a [ _ ] interestingly so you could keep them off of the areas uh you know schedule which would in turn in 2021 keep them off of the internets schedule for the area right but if it still works the same way and its been [ _ ] 15 years at least since ive done this but if world still works the same way they could contact world and get put on as the person who runs that group or the contact person for that group and have it entered into worlds database of meetings which would correct people in the na meeting finder app whether your area approved in them or not that is correct yeah they can still be on world as a meeting wow interesting all right moving on uh as we find ourselves growing closer together the awakening of humility occurs humility is a byproduct that allows us to grow and develop in an atmosphere of freedom and removes the fear of becoming known by our employers families or friends as addicts therefore we attempt to regular rigorously adhere to the principle that what is said in meetings stays in meetings i get what theyre trying to say in here and i dont like the way they say this i think we talked about this a couple weeks ago like what you see here let it what you hear here let it stay here like i think what you hear in meetings is supposed to leave the meeting with you its just not who said it or who its about like you dont leave in a gossip way with that information like oh so and so did such and such but like the good information i heard in the room and the meeting was supposed to be what i carried out of there to practice in my life i thought yeah and ive had interesting discussions with people about the idea that if you and i are friends with someone else and that someone else shares in a meeting that theyre going through struggles you know that should i come and tell you what they said in the meeting you know should we talk about that like and my understanding of that has sort of been yes if its coming from a spirit of like love and care and concern and i know youre a person that knows that person well or that has connection with them or we know a friend that needs support like hey man hes going through a really [ _ ] rough time you know he shared his [ _ ] wife left or whatever maybe you can reach out to him see how hes doing to probably help like i dont think that is the spirit of this what you hear here let it stay here idea i believe thats meant more outside of meetings and in a public space its like you know again ive talked about it a week or two ago i had someone show up at my work to get someone a job and then you know shows up at my work like hey this is a person thats in recovery like us you know and this kind of [ _ ] im like whoa wait a minute like people here dont know me in that right way i mean and its i wasnt ashamed or embarrassed or anything but thats not what that environment is its my [ _ ] job where im a supervisor at work i dont need you know people to know anything about my personal business like that yeah no absolutely i think ive always gotten around it by just when in that friend situation just saying hey i think so-and-so is going through something itd probably be cool if you gave a call right so im like i didnt really say anything you know i just kind of gave the the gist of the situation but yeah i it is really a lot about motives and what are you doing it for and some stuffs tricky i mean like you and i have had plenty of conversations about some pretty intimate stuff and then i dont always know like i have to think real hard sometimes to myself like because ill talk to my wife to get her input and advice on different things and ideas i mean shes a great resource in my recovery but then i have to try to think like oh is that something that was set in confidence or is that something thats more general information thats been like shared in a meeting and things that youve talked about that you dont care about and that can get tricky you know like because i you know you never want to violate someones intimate you know stuff so its tough and then again nowadays i know better than to think that i have all the answers or that my [ _ ] opinion is the best like sometimes i need some other people to give me insight and advice on things and you know hmm ill ill clear it up for you and ill take the onus i i dont think anythings private i dont give a [ _ ] share whatever anywhere for you i mean that might im just saying in general though with other people that i sponsor or other friends you know that might say some things to me well and i think it is tricky i mean i dont want everybody to know everything about my life and at the same time like i think that comes from a place of the fact that we shame people and we belittle people about ways they live their life that might not be the norm and i want to move away from that to a place of like just accepting that we dont have to keep [ _ ] behind closed doors like its all okay like thats my stance and i guess i gotta live that way first so its not always comfortable but yeah [ _ ] it share whatever right i dont know i mean i dont want to hide behind it if i live it id do it so in that context its okay but what if someone went to your work and said those things like that might be different ah no i i carry myself this way pretty much everywhere like i i say im gonna keep to myself im not gonna tell those work people my [ _ ] and then ill sit there and [ _ ] bab babble on about all my [ _ ] and so in general im that way too people at work probably think im [ _ ] crazy because i say all kinds of stuff all the time you know i dont care about sharing a lot about my history or all the crazy [ _ ] i did on drugs or stuff i do nowaday you know like when i make mistakes or like i have become pretty transparent in that stuff yeah and and im thankful to have a place in my life where like my work i dont feel like theres i mean there might be some judgment or some behind closed doors like oh my god do you hear that like but i dont really im not gonna outwardly feel a whole lot of that or get punished and fired or over like im sure theres environments where that is a problem and i would not like to live that way right but in general i dont ever outside a meeting specifically like i dont ever i mean we have cases where i know people in meetings and then i see them in environments outside of meetings and people be like oh how do you know so and so and itll be like uh like oh were just were friends we met somewhere a lot of times ill say through my wife and thats just a cop-out because my wife was in recovery longer than me so most of the people that she knows that we know shes known before me so its easy to say oh i met him through my wife and that gives me a good out from saying we go to these weird 12-step fellowships yeah well this happens outside of our program too so like i you know got into a local union and i would be like theyd be like who you know when im working with people who do you know in the union and i talk and blah blah blah and theyre like oh how do you know so and so and like i met him in prison they dont want me to tell everybody that like that was kind of low-key for them so it was like oh man were just old friends or some [ _ ] but yeah this isnt just an n a specific thing like this is elsewhere too and its it is tricky right when people have things that they dont want the world to know about in certain arenas and like i just personally whatever like here i am this is it and not always but more so today like i dont give a [ _ ] yeah and in the spirit of anonymity its like like you said am i gossiping about a person am i just coming to you to say oh man did you hear so and so is [ __ ] cheating on his wife with so-and-so, but the point of that is is that really serving that group is that really serving the fellowship as a whole or is that just serving me trying to get me some sort of you know points or whatever with you and are we so fun to share that [ _ ] sometimes its just like i just need somewhere to talk about this crazy [ _ ] that happened for instance uh and this has nothing to do with me or anything else and its all in the news so whatever there was a rock concert that just happened over this past weekend or something and some lady from this band that like plays they play like orchestra covers of rock music or something but shes the lead singer and apparently during the middle of their [ _ ] set she invited some dude on stage and literally pulled down our pants and pissed on his face like thats the craziest [ _ ] ive ever seen right so i was like i was in such bafflement and shock from it that i had to share it with people and it wasnt like i wanted to gossip about her like whatever some weird [ _ ] but im not judging right but it was just like i cant believe this happened and i got to tell people about it so im always looking for like a safe people that i can do that with that its not going to negatively impact the person but its like i got this information i want to talk about it because its so [ _ ] weird to me and yeah and yeah when somebody like some crazy [ _ ] happened where the guy whos been with his wife for 20 years is cheating on her with a newcomer and got caught and hes got pictures of himself and womens panties being sent around to people like i gotta talk about that right somewhere like i cant just keep it all to myself yeah and i guess ive been in situations im gonna say similar not necessarily that specifically i dont know anybody peeing in anybodys face or whatever but ive had situations where i can go to people my sponsor or other people and say like i can keep it anonymous by saying i have a sponsee thats going through this or i have a friend thats going through this and i dont have to name specific names and i mean we all know that obviously we want to know who theyre talking about because when people come to me and say that [ _ ] the first thing i want to go is well who the [ __ ] is it right right but i try to practice this principle of anonymity and think well im just going to try to not you know im not going to feed into that try to guess who it is i get three guests right right do they have a beard how about blonde hair and luckily the men that ive had in my recovery have honored that as well i dont ive never felt pressured to be like well who is it is it my wife, oh my god were so off topic uh weve done talked about pissing on peoples faces at concerts and everything else um throughout our traditions we speak in terms of we and our rather than me and mine by working together for our common welfare we achieve the true spirit of anonymity it sounds so nice and pleasant i dont know that i have any thoughts about it but it just sounds so nice well we as in you and i have gotten a little bit of grief from sharing as we in us right thats what my goddamn traditions told me to do so yeah we got permission from this tradition to speak is also as a fellowship there you go but uh yeah thats another one of those tricky you know things of like am i sharing my individual opinion or am i trying to represent the fellowship as a whole theres some it is tricky because were taught to speak in we in our program its very much like we talk about we all the time um one of the things i had heard about this tradition at some point or read somewhere was that this idea of anonymity its not so much about being anonymous in the sense of you not knowing who i am or that i go to meetings its more doing service in the spirit of anonymity right this idea that like i do service without expecting any recognition or its not about the fact that i did service its the fact that service got done and people were helped right right this idea of anonymity which i thought was when i heard it pretty cool it sounded way better than the whole yeah nobody knows our names or whatever like i dont know yeah and ive definitely uh worked on focusing on that spirit of anonymity you know when you look at each of the traditions none of them really talks about you know the anonymity of not talking about people outside of meetings and gossip like the spirit of anonymity that we talk about through our traditions is about you know having a loving god that directs us through our group conscience and working in a spirit of unity and you know our primary purpose being to carry a message to addicts that still suffer like its its all in a wee sense you know i dont know why we put so much emphasis on this dont talk about whos in meetings yeah i know i mean that is an important piece dont get me wrong i think thats important but that is not the spiritual foundation of all of our traditions right the spiritual foundation of all of our traditions is the wee part yeah thats kind of like how in seven uh we we look basically its fully self-supporting we only think of money right we dont think all the other ways were fully self-supporting which is another interesting episode if you want to go back and listen to that so this says we have heard the phrase principles before personality so often that it is like a cliche while we may disagree as individuals the spiritual principle of anonymity makes us all equal as members of the group no member is greater or lesser than any other member the drive for personal gain in the areas of sex property and social position which brought so much pain in the past falls by the wayside if we adhere to the principle of anonymity anonymity is one of the basic elements of our recovery and it pervades our traditions and our fellowship it protects us from our own defects of character and renders personalities and their differences powerless anonymity in action makes it impossible for personalities to be to come before principles yeah thats a lot but what does it mean, the drive for personal gain in the areas of sex property and social position falls by the wayside if we adhere to the principle of anonymity i think its just looking at each other as human beings you know what i mean we come in it doesnt doesnt necessarily matter how successful you are or how big your house is or how you know successful your career is like when you come into a narcotics anonymous meeting youre expected to just be equal to everyone else in the room we dont have leaders you know we dont have people in charge right back to our spokesman and all that stuff right yeah and im thinking like if youre living in the spirit of anonymity if im showing up to be the area chair just because the area chair position needs to be filled and i want to be of service okay cool if im trying to be the area chair because i think its going to get me laid or because people are going to hold me to a higher social position or whatever like thats i think what its saying like if im doing it for those reasons im going to act in ways to try to bring attention to myself as area chair whereas if im just doing it to be a service its really not about me and hopefully nobody even notices that im the one standing up there just im just filling the position to be of service right and for myself like ive and maybe this is a cop out this may be my excuse but ive had to watch getting in positions of authority in service commitments because i do tend to start thinking i know whats best and im in charge and i mean i think im a smart person i think im good at leadership right you know so i think highly of myself um and that can be a dangerous place for me so what i tend to do in service now like most recently when i showed up and got involved is i walked in a room i kind of looked around i went and sat at a table i figured out what needed to be done and said okay ill do that and i dont go in with an agenda or an attitude i just show up with a willingness to serve and if ever i was going to say i let god take the wheel and steer where it needs to steer like thats the case where i show up and wherever fate happenstance whatever you want to call it like thats what guides me not like you said well whats it i want to be in a position thats going to get a lot of authority i want to be someone whos going to get noticed i want to be the person thats going to have a lot of say like no i dont want i mean i want all those things i got to watch because thats not a healthy place for me to be i dont feel like being a service ive had that issue but with sharing at meetings ive definitely from day one you hear a good share and youre like i want to be the guy up there it sounds like that right and i have fallen into this fantasy of like im gonna share these conventions and like after my share bras and panties are gonna rain down from the audience onto me like that has never happened ive been so disappointed im like it was a good message wheres all the nobody brought me a bouquet of flowers afterwards or nothing and yeah so i i have to watch my own [ __ ] because ill be like oh my god i sound so good up there i should be you know celebrated in some kind of way in this anonymous program and thats something that somebody pointed out early on its crazy to try to be someone in an anonymous program and i think thats kind of the spirit of this 12th tradition right like were not trying to be anyone special in the fellowship or just trying to be of service and give back and understanding that comes theres like a freedom that i get from that of saying you know what i am just as good as anyone else whether i share at that podium or not i am just as important and worthwhile and a you know valued member as the guy that does share at the world convention main speaker meeting i mean and i think we all say that and then snicker because thats not the feeling that in general that exists but thats the spirit that it should be is that you know i am not great at everything nor do i need to be to earn my place here or to have my seat here or have value in this fellowship well i share again in nine days so theres still a chance still a chance it could happen this episode has been brought to you in part by voices of hope inc a non-profit recovery organization made up of people in recovery family members and allies together members strive to protect the dignity of those that use drugs and those in recovery by advocating for treatment harm reduction and support resources and mentoring please visit us at www.voicesofhopemaryland.org, in personal recovery we seek to replace self-will with the guidance of a higher power in our personal affairs see and this isnt the whole statement but i got to stop here i its so hard for me to think of just spiritual principles in the place of a higher power when they make statements like this im always like how can you not think that means god in personal recovery we seek to replace self-will with the guidance of a higher power in our personal affairs so i i guess yeah like the higher power is just im just going to live in these principles no matter what the hell i think or no matter what i want yeah so trying to balance out things like well i think this is the right approach to this you know problem but the group doesnt seem to think its the right approach to this problem so you know do i just trust in the spiritual principle of autonomy and go along and support the group you know or do i try to buck interesting all right so in personal recovery we seek to replace self-will with the guidance of a higher power in our personal lives in the same way the traditions describe a fellowship that takes its collective guidance from spiritual principles rather than individual personalities that kind of selflessness is what the 12th tradition means by the word anonymity and it is the spiritual foundation upon which narcotics anonymous is built tradition 12 is all the traditions rolled up in one summarizing and reinforcing the message of the previous eleven i mean what that tells me is you have to go back and listen to all 11 tradition episodes that we did in order to understand this more fully thats interesting so its almost like theyre saying that the traditions describe a fellowship that takes its collective guidance from spiritual principles rather than individual personalities its almost like people who who dont necessarily have a specific god who use the spiritual principles as their higher power or or you know way to establish what is right for them thats kind of what the fellowship does in the traditions right so its almost like people who dont really necessarily have a specific god are using the way the fellowship uses traditions and the spiritual principles to guide it in their own life as their higher power thats interesting right that were going to just trust in the process of principles you know as being our guiding force and the last quote i have about it which i think these tradition episodes are definitely making for our shortest episodes ever uh and i only wrote this in here because it just seems so contrary to everything that ive ever seen almost all our groups service boards and committees rotate different members through their service positions rarely asking one individual to serve in a particular position of responsibility more than one or two terms in a row the practice of rotation emphasizes our fellowships belief in the value of anonymity and service i have heard this idea like you should turn that over to somebody else you dont want the committee or the position to take on your personality and yet that is not what i have seen in service ever i have seen in my old area there was definitely like the area chair was area chair like five [ _ ] years straight uh in our current area our treasurer has been treasurer for like eight years or something crazy like we do not rotate because nobody wants to step the [ _ ] up to do anything uh well i would say its not true that no one wants to step up to do it because i will only ever hold a position for two terms and i dont know where i got this from i would love to say that i took it out of there but i didnt i i just i was like ill do two terms and then i quit i mean i dont consider it quitting i fulfilled my terms yeah and i remember i was a literature chair at one point and no one i had no other people on the committee it was just me and i took care of all the literature and i would tell them my term is up in july i think it is and i said and in august im not doing this so if no one steps up the boxes will be here in the cabinet and i said i might be here doing something else but i am not doing this after august and i didnt and it happened and someone else showed up and someone did it its kind of like i think as members sometimes we have a responsibility to step out of positions and trust that a loving god is going to fill those positions if you want to look at it this way or maybe if no one is willing to do it its not a need no one ever wants to look at that you know we never want to look at you know well maybe if we have this going on and its not getting the support or the direct uh you know participation that we want maybe its because its not serving in the way that it should thats fascinating and i dont totally disagree but i want to go further with it which committee do we not need like which committee could you be okay with it just dissolving and like if nobody would step up to do doesnt mean theres not a need for the community what it means is so if we create a service border committee directly responsible to whom it serves and then none of the people that it serves show up to participate in its involvement then they dont want that committee you know what i mean like its an indirect, i get the theory but it doesnt mean that so i will say it doesnt mean theres not a need doesnt mean do i think we need a phone line yeah but if we arent willing to show up and do the work to carry out a phone line then we dont need a [ _ ] phone line because were not willing to do the work necessary good ideas [ _ ] happen all the time its the work and the effort that goes into enacting good ideas you know that is required to make things happen i dont know though im just trying to picture like would i be able to sit back and watch like h and i fold because nobody shows up to carry meetings into hospitals and institutions like that seems like such a fundamental so we currently have or did have now after covert things are all crazy but we have serviced meetings outside of our immediate area because other areas werent willing or able um and so the same thing could happen if we dissolved one of these that you know like for example im just using phone line i dont know you know if they are overly great or not but i shouldnt say overly great i dont know if theyre overly supported or not how theyre you know how theyre feeling in their position of service but if we just said look we cant fill these positions we dont have the manpower the willingness then someone else you would think would take those responsibilities you know and if not it was it pain motivates change like maybe some people would get motivated to be like oh [ _ ] no ones gonna do it really like i think its a great idea when someone else does it but im not willing to do it im looking at like public relations im like not that they dont do more than this but i feel like generally what they mostly do is just drop pamphlets off at places im like yeah i could probably go away and i wouldnt give too much of a [ _ ] all right i dont know that anybodys reading that pamphlet in a you know probation center and thinking oh this is the answer so id like to say i was involved in public relations and we did a little more than that the idea was a little different i think more has been done at different times i just dont hear a lot about anything more happening there right and that is part of the reason for the need for change in some of these positions you know what i mean its just new ideas and the fact that you know when i was chair of literature or chair of pr whatever like just because i did it one way doesnt mean that was the right way or the best way you know obviously other people have stepped in at different times and done things differently and i mean even within our subcommittees in our area different positions have changed you know committees have taken on different responsibilities that used to be in this subcommittee or that subcommittee and thats the whole point of the autonomy like what we should be focused on first and foremost is are we best serving this need in the way that were doing it or do we just hang on to some rigid structure and ideology because thats what exists and now we feel like we have to yeah i mean at least the current pr people while theyre dropping off their pamphlets arent like sharing any scared straight programs or nothing no its a so its a its a cool tradition i like the idea that the goal or the aim is to not better myself in any way through the service im doing its really just about this is a job that needs to get done and im willing to step up and help facilitate that job getting done for an amount of time ive always been willing you know going back to this idea of like rotating people ive always been willing when there is newer members like in a home group level like oh hey ive been secretary for a while or ive been gsr for a while oh we got newer members yeah well you guys need positions like i need to step back out of that and maybe i can take on a different position or if theyre all filled maybe i dont need to maybe i can do something else to serve the meeting right maybe i can pick up supplies for the coffee or something but i i have always been hesitant like i understand the draw to well nobodys stepping up i guess i better do it so that it gets done because i want the job to get done but yeah i think youre right maybe not at a home group level when you have a small home group and theres nobody else to step up maybe you cant step out of that after one or two cycles but at an area level i i have seen many times where it takes the person saying im not doing this anymore and in order for somebody else to step up and do it yeah and thats i mean at least for me its just having faith in this process that i dont need to be in charge and involved and have my say so directly into [ _ ] that its gonna happen and its gonna exist and its gonna be what it is in spite of me or with me or you know whatever and that im just a very small grain of sand in a beach full of effort yeah and trying to keep that perspective i feel like that is probably like if you stopped doing the service work in that particular spot for that reason thats beautiful right but i feel like most of the time what happens is people just cant do that [ _ ] anymore like i have done this for five [ _ ] years i am just not trying it next year and thats somebody else so that is more one of the motivations that i have stepped out of service positions when i have what i used to do early on and again i had kids and a wife and a job and was busy as [ _ ] and so i would say all right i have a server ill take a service position for two years and then i step out for a year take a year off and then after a year sometimes a little longer because its hard to get back in sometimes im going to go back and get a service commitment again because i didnt want to develop a resentment and attitude and i didnt want that subcommittee or service to be either my identity or the identity of that committee you know what i mean like its dangerous for both its dangerous for me and its dangerous for them yeah when you come in you do you have all these fresh ideas youre excited youre pumped youre motivated and then after time you you know you put some of those ideas into practice and youre pretty happy with where its at and it does get stale youre pissed off because theyre not giving you the money that you need and nobodys showing up and these [ _ ] people yeah and youre just not as motivated anymore you dont have new ideas youve already changed the [ _ ] you wanted to change for the most part or saw why you couldnt yeah and now its time for someone else to come in with their new ideas and change things and do things differently and then to be on the other side of that and to sit back and watch some of the things that youve done be changed and not be resentful about that or to take a little bit of slight from that you know its its humbling it is i have seen people change my [ _ ] after they came into my position and im like the [ _ ] is wrong with you that was great right i am very thankful uh not that i wouldnt do this area chair position for a little longer but im very thankful that theres already somebody that you know im pretty sure wants to take it next year so its like okay cool yeah you can have it i will step down quietly i mean services is to do service from a very spiritual place is difficult its incredibly difficult i think not just in 12 step fellowships or whatever i just think in general right i think you see it a lot with people in volunteer positions in you know whatever health care workers in addictions counseling in regular counseling you know therapies and stuff like it is hard to be in a position of serving others for a long time like i think you its not a natural state for most people and uh i think its you know for me i start to get resentful and jealous i mean i do that with my own kids sometimes im like these ungrateful [ _ ] titles like dont youre right right and i can get that way about anything these people take me for granted i show up and do a great job dont they see them the best chair that theyve had in years and theyre giving me [ _ ] because they didnt get a [ _ ] report on them you know before the meeting you know just dumb [ _ ] like that that you start to get right sort of resentful over something stupid any other thoughts about this anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions ever reminding us to place principles before personalities i guess thats just like hey this isnt about you this is just about making everything run in in a way thats beneficial to the still suffering addict or you know the person who needs to help or this is just about showing up and trying to be of service and give back yeah the only other thing i thought was uh i ive heard this same idea of anonymity expressed in how we introduce ourselves at meetings and what we call ourself and in the language that as an experienced member you know i dont need to be putting all these unique twists and spins on the way i you know im a dressed up human garbage can named jason right right that you know i should be doing that in in all my affairs within the fellowship i should be trying to be as unnoticed and on center of attention as i can you know and that if im doing that that is really serving in a position of anonymity not that we dont use our skills and abilities that we have again some people are great speakers some people are are good at connecting with people you know but its its that point that its not about me being the center of attention its about you know trying to help others feel connected to feel part of a whole for me to be part of a whole it talked about that in the literature and i didnt pull that piece out because it didnt seem all that relevant but yeah the idea that like you know the old saying theres no big eyes and little use right its not about me but they also dont want us to think that its like we all need to be grayed out and opinionless like its it is our personalities and our diversity thats our strength so we still want to have that but its not about how great i am its just about oh this is the way i do it oh thats the way you do it how cool right maybe we can find some way that this works for both of us or maybe when im in service ill do it this way and when youre in service you do it that way and thatll benefit different populations through that like its its interesting to because when you say its about anonymity like the beginning of that sounds like oh yeah we all need to be these dull hey how are you doing hows the weather all right so youre around like and thats not the goal the goal is not to be grayed out or or opinionless its just to not seek i dont know money property and prestige what does it call sex and social you know prosperity like not to seek any of those things for us its just to be of benefit to the many yeah and so i would like to say in my personal life i use this idea a lot more now than ever um and we talked about a little bit in the work episode like at my job now we have you know work meetings once a month im the supervisor i pull everyone together hey this is whats going on catch them up on everything um these are some problems that were having does anybody have any input does anybody have anything youd like to say and allowing other people to have uh i dont say as much i mean im still the final authority a lot of times at work but people appreciate being heard being listened to feeling like what they have to say matters um and trying to talk to them as human beings like yeah i mean im in charge but i dont push that in their face like well you do what i say because i said to do it its like nobody whats your idea and then well talk about that idea and go well heres one of the problems with that this is kind of why we have to do it this way or or this is why we approach that this way maybe we can think a little differently and try to figure out how to overcome this but you know this is why were doing what were doing now and that helps tremendously with just interpersonal connections you know again were here to serve at my job as were here to serve the whole were here to make the company successful were here to make everybodys life a little bit better you know including the employees its its not a hierarchy where i need to punch down on people and rule over with iron fist like that doesnt work or at least in my experience that hasnt worked so well right and those ideas to have that humility have come from being involved in service so there you go hopefully throughout this year we have made the traditions a little less painful to comprehend and think about and study uh and hopefully well come up with some good plan for each month next year until then see you next week, did you like this episode share it with people you think might get something out of it check out the rest of our episodes at recoverysortof.com also while youre there you can find ways to link up with us on facebook twitter instagram reddit youtube anything were always looking for new ideas got an idea you want us to look into reach out to us, 112: Tradition 12 Anonymity is the Spiritual Foundation of all our Traditions (Sort Of), FacebookTweetPin 12/29/19 Were talking overdose, harm reduction, lost friends, how to solve addiction and more,, FacebookTweetPin We talk with Joshua Shea fromRecoveryPornAddict.comabout porn addiction, sex addiction, and partner betrayal trauma., FacebookTweetPin 4/12/20 People have taken to using peoples full names, tagging them in posts, and, 48: The Disease Doesnt Discriminate, But Does Recovery?
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